What Is Pilgrimage? w/ Guimel Sibingo

In this inaugural episode of Breathe In Place, host Montague Williams and narrative producer Guimel Sibingo explore the heart of pilgrimage: what it really is, why it matters, and how it can guide young people toward purpose, resilience, and hope in a complex world. Learn more about The Pilgrimage Innovation Hub by following us on Instagram: @pilgrimageinnovationhub

Transcript

Montague Williams (00:22):

Hello, and welcome to the very first episode of Breathe In Place, a podcast that explores how pilgrimage can help young people find purpose, resilience, hope and meaning in a complex and confusing world. I'm your host, Montague Williams.

(00:53):

If you're listening to this, you likely work with or know some young people or young adults. You might be a parent, a teacher, a pastor, a coach, or a mentor of some sort. Young people are growing up in a world of significant social, economic, and cultural change. As a result, many attempt to shield young people from difficult experiences, stories, and histories that is understandable to a certain degree. We don't want the young people we care about to suffer or experience unneeded stress. Things are stressful enough, the desire to protect and even overprotect makes sense. But what if there is another way? What if the path forward calls for a deeper understanding of where we've been as a people, as a society, as human beings? What if the path forward is about helping emerging generations embrace honesty rather than hiding them from truth? What if the path of healing requires coming face to face with societal wounds rather than covering up the stories that make us uncomfortable?

(02:04):

That's where pilgrimage comes in, and that is what this podcast is about. People often make assumptions about what pilgrimage is. I'm not simply talking about a backpacking trip through Europe on the way to St. James or travel to another religious site. Pilgrimage can be those things, but it can also be so much more. Pilgrimage is a way of engaging any place through movement and practices that honor the people, the stories, and the land of that place, and allows it to become an important part of the way a person sees the world. What if we introduce young people to pilgrimage in this way? Over the course of this podcast, we're going to explore how the practice of sacred travel, visiting neighborhoods, landscapes, sites of memory can help young people, families, and faith communities make sense of a world that often feels confusing, overwhelming, and honestly broken.

(03:07):

Each episode will talk with writers, pastors, educators, youth workers, scholars, and everyday people whose journeys and insights act as signposts showing hope, justice, and courage for the next generation. And we'll explore questions like, can pilgrimage help young people discover resilience? Can it help them uncover their purpose? I want this to be a space where we slow down, reflect and imagine what it might look like to move through life and the world with more awareness, more care, more intention. So whether you're a parent or a youth worker or a pastor, or just someone trying to figure out how to guide the young people in your life, I hope this show gives you stories, ideas, and a little bit of hope to carry with you. Our first conversation is with our producer, Guimel Sibingo, where we dive into the heart of pilgrimage. Together we explore what pilgrimage really means, why it matters for young people, and why this practice is so relevant in our complicated world. My hope is that this conversation will set the tone for the episodes to come, offering a foundation for the stories, insights, and reflections we'll share in future discussions. So let's dive in and get the conversation started.

Guimel Sibingo (04:37):

Hi, Montague.

Montague Williams (04:39):

Hey, Guimel. How are you?

Guimel Sibingo (04:40):

I'm doing really good. I'm really glad that we get to do this

Montague Williams (04:44):

Me too.

Guimel Sibingo (04:44):

Talking about pilgrimage today. So let's just dive right into it.

Montague Williams (04:50):

Cool.

Guimel Sibingo (04:51):

I wanted to start off giving folks a chance to know who you are, where you come from, and how the idea for this podcast came about. So you are a professor at a local university here in San Diego, but you are also the director of something called the Pilgrimage Innovation Hub. So can you explain to our listeners what you do, what kind of work you engage in, and also what is the Pilgrimage Innovation Hub?

Montague Williams (05:19):

Yeah, sure. Yeah, so I'm a professor here at Point Loma Nazarene University, and a great deal of that work is teaching courses that span the areas of theology, philosophy, ethics, ministry. But over the last couple of years, I've been focused on this research initiative. The Pilgrimage Innovation Hub has an official purpose, and I'll explain what that is and then I'll break it down even further.

Guimel Sibingo (05:46):

Okay.

Montague Williams (05:46):

So generally the way we talk about it is we say we are a grant funded research and development initiative that aims to make the theology and practice of pilgrimage more accessible and meaningful component of youth and young adult ministry for Christian congregations and organizations across North America. And we emphasize justice and creative pedagogy, and we seek to break through common stereotypes of pilgrimage and cultivate practices, experiences, and resources that connect well with young people's deepest questions.

Guimel Sibingo (06:19):

Okay, so break that down for me. That was a lot to take in. Yeah.

(06:23):

Oh, really?

(06:29):

What is the Innovation Hub's goal in terms of what it can do for people?

Montague Williams (06:33):

Well, ultimately we want to help reimagine the way discipleship happens. If you look at scripture, just think through the way Jesus engages in discipleship. Rarely do you see Jesus gathering people around a book study and sitting around a table and then debating about different aspects of a book or something like that. Oftentimes, Jesus is on the way from a particular here to a particular there. And as they're on the way, people are asking questions about the places they're encountering, the people that they're encountering, and Jesus' helping them interpret the world together. And the major goal of the Pilgrimage Innovation Hub is to help congregations reimagine and engage in discipleship in that kind of way. So what we do is we first of all help congregations participate in pilgrimage, whether they need some financial resources for that or if they need training on what to do on pilgrimage or how to bring pilgrimage practices or elements into the things that they already do. But we also hope that we can build networks of people who care for young people and networks of folks who can help each other embrace pilgrimage practices. We're also wanting to create some tools and resources to make this more accessible. So actually this podcast is one of those tools or one of the resources I should say.

Guimel Sibingo (08:15):

So this podcast, or it's being brought to life as a way as a resource for folks who want to engage more in this type of pilgrimage.

Montague Williams (08:28):

I mean, oftentimes when I lead workshops on pilgrimage with different kinds of youth workers, there's often a question that comes up, does this count as a pilgrimage? Does this count as a pilgrimage? Or how could I shift the way we're doing this thing into a pilgrimage? And instead of me showing up at all these different workshops, I thought we'd bring people into conversation right here through the podcast who can give firsthand insight around their way of doing pilgrimage or even giving people insight around who they might encounter on pilgrimage.

Guimel Sibingo (09:04):

That makes a lot of sense, and I'm really excited for all the conversations that our listeners will get to step into through this podcast. So let's take a bird's eye view. Let's just look at this from a big picture perspective. What is pilgrimage in its essence? When I think of pilgrimage, I usually think of travel to a religious site, for example. Is that an accurate understanding of pilgrimage or is there more to it?

Montague Williams (09:38):

Yeah, I mean, in many ways that concept of pilgrimage is pretty standard. And that's because different religious groups often help name meaning in a place. And one of the main ways we do that is by declaring a place holy, but theologically, or when we think about the way God works in the world from a Christian perspective, we have to ask questions about places that are often not seen as holy. If God is alive and well and active and moving, if the spirit goes everywhere, then anywhere can be holy, anywhere can be sacred, even the places we assume are forsaken. And what we're hoping to do in these conversations is to help people reimagine how you engage, even those places that are seemingly forsaken, how you engage them in a way that acknowledges God is at work there, that they really are sacred places, but we often bypass awareness to God's movement, God's work in a place because it's easier to go to the places that have been established and named. This is the holy place. So we really want to engage pilgrimage with an understanding, a theological understanding that the spirit is alive, the Holy Spirit is alive and at work, any and everywhere.

Guimel Sibingo (11:15):

That was amazing what you just said about how certain spaces seem to have been forsaken or not seen as holy, and how if the Holy Spirit is present in every place, then that means that we should engage with those places. I'm wondering if you have any examples of places that you consider to be or that society may consider to be forsaken or unholy? What comes to mind to you when you think of the forsaken places that deserve our attention?

Montague Williams (11:52):

Well, let me just say, if you want to think about this biblically, the number one place we can think of is the cross, the cross, as much as it is a symbol of hope and a symbol that is life giving in Christian faith, if you really think about what the cross is, it is a place that is seemingly forsaken. Even Jesus says that on the cross.

Guimel Sibingo (12:19):

And the people from that time saw it as this horrendous, horrific

Montague Williams (12:24):

Thing. But within our faith, we have come to understand it as holy as sacred, that the story here is not bound simply to the things that make us afraid of it. But the first time that kind of idea started to become clear to me, especially when it connects with pilgrimage, was when I led a group of young people, college students, specifically on a pilgrimage to Ferguson, Missouri, where Michael Brown was killed. I was invited to be a part of a gathering during the one year memorial time. And while I was out there, I got to know people on the ground, residents and different civic leaders, pastors. And in fact, some of my family actually lives out there. I mean, I spent time growing up visiting that area a lot growing up. But I was out there in 2015 and I came back doing my work as a professor and then as chaplain. And in the summer of 2016, Philando Castile was killed.

Guimel Sibingo (13:43):

So that was two years after Michael Brown's.

Montague Williams (13:45):

Yes, two years after. And people don't call the college chaplain in the summers,

Guimel Sibingo (13:51):

Right?

Montague Williamsr (13:52):

It's not a normal thing. Yeah,

Guimel Sibingo (13:54):

School's out, you're

Montague Williams (13:55):

Not

Guimel Sibingo (13:55):

Going to.

Montague Williams (13:56):

Exactly. It's very chill. There's some programming that takes place, but generally people aren't calling in asking the chaplain of the college they go to during the academic year, what do we do?

Montague Williams (14:07):

Yeah

Montague Williams (14:07):

That was happening that summer. Now, of course, that particular college was one of the most racially and culturally diverse Christian colleges in the country at the time. This

Guimel Sibingo (14:23):

Is the college you previously worked

(14:24):

At before

Guimel Sibingo (14:25):

PLNU?

Montague Williams (14:26):

Yes. And you really couldn't imagine the academic year happening without this conversation being on people's minds.

Montague Williams (14:39):

So

Montague Williams (14:39):

In many ways, I was really thankful that young people were calling in the summers because they began a process without knowing it. They began a process of helping us prepare for the upcoming year and helping us have a deeper understanding of what students were thinking about.

Guimel Sibingo (14:56):

So this horrific event happened and it was affecting young people's minds and their hearts, and they were seeking direction as to how do we engage with this? How do we think through this?

Montague Williams (15:11):

Yes. And it was incredibly tough too because during that week that Philando Castile was killed, the conversation in the country was starting to shift more towards an honesty

Montague Williams (15:23):

Around

Montague Williams (15:24):

Some of the practices that were problematic.

Guimel Sibingo (15:27):

Yeah

Montague Williams (15:27):

Then by the end of that week, there was a gathering, a march of some sort in Dallas. And two police officers were killed,

Guimel Sibingo (15:41):

Were killed there.

Montague Williams (15:42):

And so the conversation around justice for black people and the conversation around honesty around some of these practices that needed to shift, it just shut down and it flipped. And so it was this strange week of young people feeling like very bothered, but then also hopeful that change was coming and then once again hit this rollercoaster shift downward of

Guimel Sibingo (16:10):

Shutting down those conversations

Montague Williams (16:11):

That

Guimel Sibingo (16:11):

Were being had.

Montague Williams (16:12):

And so there was a whole lot of what do we do? What do we do? And we held conversations. We actually held a gathering on the campus. There were questions like, do we go to the prayer vigil or do we go to the protest prayer vigil or protest?

Guimel Sibingo (16:31):

Where should we travel to? Where

(16:33):

Should we

(16:33):

Have some sort of pilgrimage to understand this issue?

Montague Williams (16:37):

And it hit me. I'm like, we do have this program in the spring that generally is about going somewhere and either building something for a community or leading some sort of discipleship for a community or doing something that is often about making this difference. But it hit me that we probably should make a way for young people who really want to enter the work of discernment to go to Ferguson and learn from people who are there, learn from people who are residents and civic leaders, pastors, people who have lived through this story,

Guimel Sibingo (17:24):

A place that's been forgotten, forsaken, seen as unholy,

Montague Williams (17:29):

And ultimately visit the site where Michael Brown was killed. What's really interesting about that is it generated a lot of interest from young people across racial and cultural groups. And we created a multi-tier system of interviewing and applying and making sure that young people could come ready to have important conversations, but we let them know, you're not going to fix anything.

Guimel Sibingo (18:00):

Yeah

Montague Williams (18:00):

Not going on this trip to walk away feeling like you can pat yourself on the back and say, we did this great thing over spring break and we changed some community. That wouldn't be the point. And so we wanted to make sure people were ready to learn, to listen, to engage each other, to encounter truth. And as we were looking more closely at what that was, we began to name, this is a pilgrimage, especially when we would hear young people say, I really want to visit that site where Michael Brown was killed. And we would ask, what do you want to do there? I don't know. And actually when I was there in 2015, I noticed that people often didn't know what to do at that site. People would bring trinkets or they would take selfies. Some were excited and celebrating that they were there because many came from all over the country, some from different parts of the world. Like I said, we were taking selfies, some were crying, laughing. It just seemed like this is a pilgrimage site, but there's no guidance. And that's when you think about official pilgrimage sites established religious pilgrimage sites. There

Guimel Sibingo (19:25):

Is, there's guidance.

Montague Williams (19:26):

There's guidance. People know what to do because they're told what to do. But in these spots, which do connect deeply with human being, there isn't that much guidance. And I thought, okay, well, let's go engage that place and discern together what we do there. So we went and I scheduled conversations with different folks, pastors, residents, activists. We actually went to the mayoral debate. We met with the chief of police.

Guimel Sibingo (19:57):

Wow

Montague Williams (19:57):

We met with civil rights lawyers. It was incredibly meaningful. And along the way, we let people know that we are putting together a liturgy to participate in Eucharist or communion or Lord's supper together at the site where Michael Brown was killed. The liturgy we put together was based on insights we gained through those conversations, and we put it together prayerfully. We worked on it together as a group. And when we got there, we put in particular practices that reflected some of the meaning and insights we gained along the way. And while we were there, after we participated in Eucharist together, one of the students said to me, she said, I think I finally know what this whole communion Eucharist thing is all about.

Guimel Sibingo (21:07):

Wow. So the act of pilgrimage helped her understand a spiritual practice.

Montague Williams (21:14):

And I was like, what do you mean by that? Now mind you, this student grew up in a Catholic church context. And so within Catholic theology, there's this understanding of transubstantiation where the bread and the wine or grape juice becomes

Guimel Sibingo (21:34):

The literal body and blood of Christ

Montague Williams (21:36):

Yes. When you consecrate the elements, there is a sort of transformation of the substance of what they are. Now, there's still mystery around the ins and outs of all of that, but there is an understanding of this truly is the body and blood of Jesus Christ. Well, she says to me, she says, can we take the rest of that grape juice and just throw it on the street? Because if you look at the site, if you ever have been there, you'll see that the spot, the plot where Michael Brown's body once lay in the sun for hours, it's removed. Originally his blood stained that street. If you would've gone before, you would've seen his blood stained on the street. But now it's cut out and you could see the spot where it's cut out.

Montague Williams (22:36):

And

Montague Williams (22:36):

She asked, she says, can we throw the rest of this grape juice on the street because God is not afraid of these places? And people are trying to hide what happened here.

Montague Williams (22:48):

So

Montague Williams (22:48):

Can we throw the blood on the street

Guimel Sibingo (22:50):

As a way to remember,

Montague Williams (22:52):

As a way to remember, and a way to just acknowledge where God goes and how God is in solidarity with people who experienced some of the worst aspects of the world's systems.

Guimel Sibingo (23:05):

Yeah. Jesus died himself obviously for reasons to saving us, but there's blood that was shed. There was violence that was done.

Montague Williams (23:17):

And I said to her, I said, it's not our street to do that on. We would really need to get permission. I don't want to do that here. But I let her know, and it remained with me that she was able to discern theologically through this practice of pilgrimage and through engaging the world in honest ways, engaging place in honest ways, she was able to discern some theological insight that many people could study for years and never gain. We were a part of a text group, this group of Ferguson pilgrimage students, and that group remained for so long. We actually are still in communication. Many walked away from that trip. When they returned home, their discernment continued, many changed majors,

Montague Williams (24:14):

Career

Montague Williams (24:15):

paths. It just kind of blew me away, what one week of honestly engaging place and engaging people in a prayerful way, engaging history story in a prayerful way, what that can do for one's own sense of calling purpose, identity, ethical discernment for the relationships they build and the kind of relationships they're committed to. It left a mark on me, and I began a deeper study of what pilgrimage is and what pilgrimage can be.

Guimel Sibingo (24:52):

So that was amazing, just getting to hear a really robust example of what pilgrimage does in a young person's life and in any person's life, obviously in this podcast, folks might not be able to go with us on a pilgrimage or engage in a travel even though we would want to encourage them to do so. What role does this podcast play in helping people understand what pilgrimage is? What sorts of topics and conversations are we looking to have to open up that world to people?

Montague Williams (25:32):

Well, I mean, one of the first things would be what makes a place holy? I gave a little bit of a descriptor of that as we talked about God being any and everywhere. But what does that look like in people's lives and how can we think about that through the lens of different places? How are places holy and what does it mean for a place to be holy? I think that's going to be a major question we engage, but also how do we engage places, honestly, how do we help young people tap into their deepest questions and actually engage each other and engage their mentors, their parents, coaches, pastors? How do we help the conversation get to those deeper places in a way that has fruit? Not just to say, oh, wow, you are dealing with some really intense things. Don't know what to do with that,

Guimel Sibingo (26:29):

Right

Montague Williams (26:30):

How do we get to a conversation where there's real guidance? We'll be bringing in voices of folks who are experienced in the work of pilgrimage, and we'll be bringing in people who are experienced in different significant places and experiences that connect with the practice of pilgrimage.

Guimel Sibingo (26:51):

Right. And you address a myriad of topics around race, racism, racial identities, but you also, the hub also conducts pilgrimages with a focus on parents and teenagers journeying together, the church's relationship to society, faithful remembering. So can you talk about all the sort of other aspects of pilgrimage?

Montague Williams (27:19):

Parents and children tend to have a bit of connection and bond throughout the young life, but as teenagers begin to find their own questions that they think their parents can never engage, there tends to be the slow separation

Guimel Sibingo (27:43):

Yeah

Montague Williams (27:43):

Perhaps even sometimes a fast separation where their parents and teenagers begin to talk past each other and sometimes on purpose. They don't know if they can handle what each other has to offer, but also because it's like they're living in different worlds. We'll be bringing in participants and leaders and pilgrimage work that have helped parents and teenagers come together in significant conversations through the practice of pilgrimage. And there's enough research that shows if young people are going to have a long lasting, meaningful experience with faith, it really requires the adults in their lives modeling that. Whether that's a parent or a coach or a mentor. It really takes a very meaningful relationship with adults who can model faith in a complex world. And engaging in pilgrimage together is one major step forward in that kind of faith.

Guimel Sibingo (29:01):

Why do you think, this is a bit of a cold question here, might be a bit of a rough transition here, but why do you think we're so averse to remembering our histories and what is painful for us or a difficult past or even why are we as a society averse to being in touch with our emotions or with things that are difficult in our lives, talking about relationships with parents and teenagers? It's hard to get through those barriers sometimes.

Montague Williams (29:37):

Well, this is actually partly why we're engaging pilgrimage with a focus on young people, because one reason why it's hard to engage some difficult histories is because of the assumption that if you engage it well, it's just going to pass on the negative to the next generation.

Guimel Sibingo (29:58):

Yeah

Montague Williams (29:59):

Is an assumption that young people are innocent of some of the worst things that the world's systems have done. They're innocent, and if you name them, it takes away the,ir innocence and it might destroy their future. Now they don't have anything else. Then what's been done. So there's this assumption that you can cut off the past with the hope that there's some innocent future that'll begin with the next generation. But that is a lie. There's no truth to that. There's been no evidence. In fact, only the opposite has proven true. And what's so interesting is we all know that if you don't understand what's happened, you're bound to repeat it. Or at least we all think that. I don't know if there's any proof on that anywhere, but we often hear that. We often say that, and even learning from your own mistakes, we often teach that to kids like, okay, you made a mistake. Well, let's learn from that. What can we learn from this? Well, society has made a lot of mistakes and instead of hiding young people from it, we can model the courage to engage it. And that courage takes deep spiritual work on the part of adult mentors, and it invites young people into that deep spiritual work as well.

Guimel Sibingo (31:24):

And by young people. What ages are we talking about here?

Montague Williams (31:26):

Well, that's a great question. Young people, that concept generally, people are thinking of about age 12 all the way through mid twenties.

Guimel Sibingo (31:38):

Young adults.

Montague Williams (31:39):

Young adults and different groups, different cultural groups have a different understanding of what they mean by youth. But generally, we are looking at that range, anything from 12 all the way through young adulthood.

Guimel Sibingo (31:51):

Yeah, it's interesting what you said about there's so many different cultures around the world that engage in that work of remembering ancestry, remembering stories that have been told before, even biblically thinking about the stories that were passed on with the people of Israel and how God was inviting them to remember the things that he had done, but the things that they had been through as well. So I think that's really interesting point that you brought up there. Just to close this off, looking ahead, what do you hope listeners will take away from this podcast as they explore pilgrimage in their own lives and some of these themes tied to pilgrimage or with the young people that they care about as well?

Montague Williams (32:44):

One thing I hope people begin to see is that they don't have to go very far to practice pilgrimage. There is a lot that comes out of taking a pilgrimage that is distant, and we will be engaging that. But I do hope people begin to see their own neighborhoods, their own towns, cities, as places to engage, to unearth, buried stories so that the emerging generations can move forward in healing and hope and begin some paths to a better world. I also hope that families, congregations, other kinds of communities that seek to help young people make meeting, I hope that listeners begin to feel the creativity that can come with pilgrimage, that it's not just about getting from here to a there and getting back, but it's full of creative, artistic, prayerful practices, actions, interactions along the way. And I hope listeners begin to find some things that they think, wait a second. This is a complicated conversation. It's a big practice, but I can do that one thing, and if I do that one thing, that little thing, it can make a big difference.

Guimel Sibingo (34:15):

Thank you so much, Montague. This was a really meaningful conversation.

Montague Williams (34:19):

Oh, it's a good conversation. I'm glad to have it with you. I'm looking forward to this podcast, and I'm glad we get to team up and do this together.

Guimel Sibingo (34:25):

Me too.

Montague Williams 34:27):

You've been listening to Breathe In Place, a podcast brought to you by the Pilgrimage Innovation Hub. This podcast is made possible by generous support from the Lilly Endowment, Narrative production by Guimel Sibingo, technical production by Danny Martinez, and Project Coordination and Guest booking by Wanda Gailey, opening Music by Chaos. If you have any comments or questions about today's episode, we'd love to hear from you. Send us an email at pilgrimage@pointloma.edu or message us on Instagram at Pilgrimage Innovation Hub. I'm your host, Montague Williams. Thanks again for joining us. We'll see you next week.